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Are you atheists getting the correct God to deny?

Are you atheists getting the correct God to deny?

You seem to fashion your own kind of God to deny and to make fun of.

Have it ever occurred to you that the God that you are denying and making fun of is not the God that makes everything, that is totally different from your kind of unintelligent and without intentional will, totally some kind of random force absolutely blind but paradoxically still ruled by what is that? The law of the survival of the fittest, you bring up all the time, evolution?

Do some serious thinking and come to the even just suspicion that the God you are denying is more than what religious people or religions portray Him to be.

Please do some work with your reason and intelligence on that score.

You keep conflating God and religion which is totally indicative of a confused mind incapable or unaccustomed to think accurately and with precision.

Posted: April 23rd 2009

flagellant www

I think you have a serious problem in saying 'Do some serious thinking and come to the even just suspicion that the God you are denying is more than what religious people or religions portray…’ and 'Please do some work with your reason and intelligence…’

How are we supposed to know what the god you are thinking of is like? What’s your evidence for (any) god? Do you just 'feel’ there’s a god the way you felt you were going to win the lottery last week? (And did you?) Or the way someone high on LSD thinks they can fly? (And can they?) Or even that, simply by telling us that there’s a god, you’ll convince us? (Fat chance.)

Given your inability to demonstrate that god exists – and it’s up to you to prove it, not up to us to disprove your imaginings – it’s clear that you have a personal concept not open to me, or other atheists, to appreciate. Do you have your own personal church or is it simply that because you have this blind, unjustifiable conviction, then you are convinced that the whole World should have it, too?

Consider the colour red; if we were to look at something the colour in question, we could at least discuss how red or how orange it is. But we don’t have the faintest idea what you’re talking about when you mention 'god’ because he/she/it fortuitously exists only in your imagination.

I hope you see our difficulty: you ask us to use 'reason and intelligence’, and you accuse us of being 'incapable or unaccustomed to think[ing] accurately and with precision’, yet you do not, apparently, level the same charges at yourself.

Posted: May 3rd 2009

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Reed Braden www

Since I deny all gods, I’m absolutely certain that “the correct God” (i.e. your god) is on the list of gods I deny.

So, yes, I’m “getting the correct God to deny.”

Posted: April 27th 2009

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George Locke

The question 'are we denying the right god’ appears to be based on the misconception that there are certain gods that an atheist might deny and others that we wouldn’t. Atheists don’t believe in any gods. The idea that a god might exist is manifestly specious. It doesn’t matter what qualities the god may have. There’s just never been any good evidence for anything miraculous.

A few scattered points about your scattered question:

  • When have atheists claimed that gods must be subject to survival of the fittest? An omnipotent being would have infinite fitness, so the claim doesn’t seem sensible.
  • Regardless of who’s “accustomed to thinking accurately”, your claim that atheists conflate religion with god(s) requires substantiation. Are you saying that we shouldn’t confuse the “real” god with the one described by the world’s religions (as if it would make a difference)?

Posted: April 27th 2009

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Paula Kirby www

I am an atheist because I see no good reason to believe in any god or gods at all. In other words, I see no evidence for any god or gods of any description. It therefore doesn’t matter if you think I’ve got the specific attributes of “your” god wrong. I don’t disbelieve in your god because of the attributes I associate with it – I disbelieve in it because I see no evidence to suggest that ANY god exists.

If you could suddenly produce good reason to believe there was a god at all, that wouldn’t then automatically mean it was the god you believe in. As you’ve suggested in your question, different religions and different individual believers have completely different ideas of what their god might be like. They can’t all be right.

So, if you are hoping to convince us that your beliefs are right, you have a two-stage process to go through:

1. Demonstrate good evidence for why there is a god of any kind at all

2. THEN demonstrate why it must be the one YOU believe in.

And, of course, by “demonstrate”, I mean “provide evidence”, not “please tell us why it just feels right to you”.

NB. The existence of questions for which we don’t yet have answers is NOT evidence for a god. It’s not THAT long ago that we didn’t understand volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, or even thunder, and angry gods seemed to be the only possible explanation. No sensible person these days would suggest that a god, angry or otherwise, was necessary to account for them.

Posted: April 25th 2009

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Dave Hitt www

Have it ever occurred to you that the God that you are denying and making fun of is not the God that makes everything, that is totally different from your kind of unintelligent and without intentional will, totally some kind of random force absolutely blind but paradoxically still ruled by what is that? The law of the survival of the fittest, you bring up all the time, evolution?

Can you give me a hand here? I need a Goober –> English / English –> Goober dictionary to help decipher your incoherent posts.

This is a site where adults ask sincere, respectful questions of atheists and get sincere, respectful answers. Last time I counted there were 128,097,265 forums and blogs where True Believers are welcome to insult those who choose a reality based life. I’d suggest you find one. This isn’t one of them.

Before you do, though, I’d like to offer a friendly piece of advice. Before posting anything else, anywhere, spend some time on this site. A lot of time.

In the meantime, tell you what. You’ve convinced me that I’m disbelieving in the wrong god. So I’ve decided to believe in Thor. Now please excuse me, in order to worship him I’m going to go get hammered.

Posted: April 25th 2009

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George Ricker www

You seem confused about atheism.

Atheism is the absence of god-belief. It is not about religions at all. Nor is it a denial of anything. Now, it certainly is true that one who does not believe in gods is not going to follow religions based on the worship of those gods, but it does not follow that the atheist is conflating the god-idea with religions.

You also seem confused about how arguments are presented.

If you have a notion about a god that is different from the ideas about god that are commonly worshipped in various religions, then it is incumbent upon you to make your case for that concept.

How is your “God” defined and described? What is its nature? What is its function? Does it have any relationship at all with the physical universe of matter and energy, and if it does not, then what is its relevance to that universe? What is the evidence for your deity’s existence and how may that evidence be independently verified and tested by interested parties?

Please note, it is not incumbent upon us to prove anything false. If you are making the claim “God exists,” then it is up to you to demonstrate the validity of that claim and to do so in the manner described above.

The truth of the matter is that the word “god” is susceptible of so many meanings as to be virtually meaningless. There are all sorts of ideas about the nature of gods and not all of them have anything to do with religions. If you want anyone to consider the question of whether or not a particular version of the god hypothesis is valid, then you have to make the case for that concept before anyone else can offer an opinion about its value.

In my view atheists don’t lack belief in gods because we have no belief in religions. We have no belief in theistic religions because we have no belief in gods.

(Actually, there are some atheists who continue to belong to religious fellowships even though they don’t believe in gods. Those who do claim to do so because they enjoy the social aspects of the particular religion in question, or the music and so on. That has always seemed problematic to me, but it’s not so surprising when one considers the amount of conditioning that goes on in most childhoods.)

Posted: April 24th 2009

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SmartLX www

Atheists by definition deny theistic gods. That means any god which has the power to observe and affect the world in which we live, and an interest in actually doing so.

Does the god you’re thinking of satisfy these criteria? If so, then atheists have at least a rough handle on the hypothetical concept of this god, and they deny that it exists (not with certainty, but with confidence). Religion as a separate entity is irrelevant to this understanding, and this denial.

There is however an effect in the other direction. Once a religion does not appear to have the support of an actual deity, actions taken in its name must stand only on their own merits. Many such actions were never meant to be examined thus, and it shows.

Posted: April 24th 2009

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brian thomson www

Please do some work with your reason and intelligence on that score.

Does that mean I actually have reason and intelligence to use, then? Gee, thanks!

You keep conflating God and religion which is totally indicative of a confused mind incapable or unaccustomed to think accurately and with precision.

So, basically, you think you have the right to insult people who do not share your particular beliefs?

Assuming that I am able to think “accurately and with precision” – and yes, I know the difference between those two attributes, do you? – just what should I be applying those skills to, when it comes to religion? I don’t think I do conflate “God and religion”, since I am well aware that there are many religions, and the concept of “God”, whether Judeo-Christian or otherwise, only applies to some of them. So, where is the target that I should be attacking with “accuracy and precision”?

You (and other theists) keep conflating atheism with the active denial of particular religious concepts and deities. Just because you believe something which I don’t, that does not mean I am actively denying the entity that you believe in. So, when you say atheists are “denying God”, you’re making a totally unwarranted assumption that shows you aren’t reading the answers to other questions, even the ones you posed yourself. At this point, that just looks like trolling, and I don’t see why you bother, if you aren’t willing to learn anything. Do you really think we are waiting for you to come here and tell us we’re wrong and stupid?

From my point of view as an atheist, there is nothing there, in your religion or anyone else’s, to actively deny, since it’s all in your head anyway. Do you find that insulting? If so, you are starting to understand how it feels for me to be told that I have “a confused mind incapable or unaccustomed to think accurately and with precision.”

You may get more specific (e.g. references to “God”, but that is not a universally-accepted concept, even within the area of religion. The whole thing is so woolly and vague that it’s hard to deal with categorically; but that’s OK, because I don’t have to actively deny religion, I only need to dismiss it as irrelevant to me and my life. Do you think you will change anyone’s minds by insulting them, or implying that you are smarter than atheists because you know more about religion?

Posted: April 24th 2009

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logicel

From my earliest memories, from age seven or so, I have not believed in the supernatural. Any personal god would need to be supernatural.

It must be so difficult for a religious believer to grasp that a person could never believe in a supernatural entity, of any kind. I do not focus on if there is the right god (or the right interpretation of the right god) among the many in which people have believed and at present in which they believe (or any future gods that may pop up in the human imagination). I focus on the supernatural for which I see no evidence.

The supernatural is the non-existent realm that Santa, fairies, demons, gods must inhabit. It is like if you said please accept the existence of people in a non-existent country because you know by some magical hot-line of personal revelation/faith/hodgepodge of a holy book that they exist. And you would go on to explain that some people think that there are non-existent people in this non-existent land that they believe exist but you know that they do not. And that these folks in the non-existent land who do exist are very powerful and influential BECAUSE THEY HAVE MADE EVERYTHING.

Survival of the fittest is a concept that many evolution deniers do not understand properly, and yet, they deign to wave it about as if they do (the arrogance of ignorance). The fittest can be the weakest, if that is what takes to survive to the point in which you can reproduce and pass on the 'selfish’ gene. The fittest often just lives for a short time to accomplish the 'selfish’ gene agenda. The fittest do not have a jolly good time for the most part. But thankfully, the 'selfish’ gene leads to the altruistic society.

You also seem to be equating abiogenesis with evolution. And please, who made your god? And if your god has always been, then why not accept that the universe always has been? There is no evidence that a personal god is interacting with the universe. So a deist or the pantheist god of Spinoza and Einstein to me is the same as the universe. But it would be ridiculous and absurd to worship the universe (as it would be to worship Jesus because he was electrocuted instead of what seems to us as the more exotic crucifixion which was just the common capital punishment of that earlier time.)

If overwhelming evidence points to the fact that there is no designed intention of life, then I am afraid, that I would be intellectually dishonest, emotionally troubled, and morally bankrupt if I continue to willfully ignore such evidence. Evidence so far shows that the purpose of life is unintended but not random (because of the reality of natural selection) replication.

And again, god is not mocked, it is theistic god belief that is mocked (when it is, but mostly it is being soundly criticized).

Posted: April 24th 2009

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